PineClan&StarClan

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But Sabor, StarClan has said numerous times that they are not the almighty force in the forest (in the books, of course).

So that would be the same for us. Why would StarClan try to force a cat (even if the cat is close to believe) to believe?

I've always seem them as accepting of all beliefs. StarClan is just another clan of course. Having them try to force another cat to belief would be like MeadowClan trying to get all the other clans to dull their claws by burrowing.

I was not intending for that to be taken as StarClan forces cats to believe, no, simply just that they try to persuade them if they are unsure.

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What about the cats born in Pineclan? They will never get the word of Starclan since their clan will not tell it to them... would Starclan starve them of a chance?

I believe they would be more persistant because they didn't want the second generation of cats to grow up like this. They would send more dreams because they wanted someone to believe and still spread stories through the clan.

[Crowzerplorodon]

Because PineClan is a new clan. Maybe StarClan believes that if they push against the will of PineClan enough the cats will come to their senses. I would agree with what you are saying if they were a very old clan, but no. When StarClan sent a message to ForestClan that they must move I am sure they knew that if there was to be new clans there would be uncertainty among some of the cats that were born after the move. StarClan shouldn't give up on these new cats just because they don't believe at the moment.

StarClan did not tell ForestClan to split up. Cedarstar thought it would be best and he arranged it on his own.

Now, PineClan was formed by non-believers and is full of non-believers, which the exception of one or two.

If a new clan is formed on certain roots, changing those roots would be crazy. It'd be like if America decided to have a king three days after we won the Revolutionary War. (Sorry Rolo, xD)

StarClan could attempt it, but, as seen clearly in the series, cats who do not believe and are not accepting would not get a message from StarClan. So no dreams would get through. Period.

I was not intending for that to be taken as StarClan forces cats to believe, no, simply just that they try to persuade them if they are unsure.

Even if a cat is unsure, I don't think StarClan would even attempt it.

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StarClan did not tell ForestClan to split up. Cedarstar thought it would be best and he arranged it on his own.

Now, PineClan was formed by non-believers and is full of non-believers, which the exception of one or two.

If a new clan is formed on certain roots, changing those roots would be crazy. It'd be like if America decided to have a king three days after we won the Revolutionary War. (Sorry Rolo, xD)

StarClan could attempt it, but, as seen clearly in the series, cats who do not believe and are not accepting would not get a message from StarClan. So no dreams would get through. Period.

Your going to tell me that StarClan wouldn't even try the slightest to change PineClan, or at least some of the cats in it? They would just give up on the clan? No, they wouldn't. Because then they wouldn't be StarClan. Other clans look to StarClan for answers, protection, and most other things. StarClan tries its best to help all clans.

[pridesin]

But, Sabor, that's the difference between the other cats and Pineclan. They don't look up to Starclan for answers, protection, and other things. Why would Starclan waste the effort to stretch out to cats that have already rejected their ways? It would most likely be a wasted effort. It's like trying to convert an atheist into someone with a religion. They will always come up with excuses for why certain things happen.

[Rolo]

Mar 10, 2009 20:25:23 GMT -5 @pridesin said:

Crow, I can see your logic.

I think having Starclan just not contact Pineclan altogether make for a much more dynamic roleplay.

As can I, but I believe that /completely/ taking Starclan out of the equation for Pineclan will not be the answer.

By cutting out all contact from Starclan to Pineclan, we won't have any character development in the beliefs area. I would not suggest that EVERY character gets messages from Starclan, I'd literally limit the dreams to 5 characters and give them 1 or 2, only a substantial amount if it is part of a plot. I'd also make it completely compulsory to apply for a dream, and that you cannot have one unless you have stated the outcome and gotten the admins to pass it.

By taking Starclan out completely, we would limit the potential routes Pineclan can take. Pineclan will always be uncertain in their beliefs to a point, as they are surrounded by 3 clans who do believe, but it's the fact that they still /don't/ believe that makes their clan so strong. Even if Starclan were proven to be true, would they embrace them? Wouldn't they rebel against the idea that they are being controlled? But I digress...

Cut out Starclan pretty much completely means the belief aspect MAY work as outside the clans (as we always have 1 non-believer clan) but INSIDE the clan, we're stunting possible fun mini-plots and character struggles. JUST as we have cats in other clans who don't believe (which creates a plot) and makes those shed doubt on Starclan, we NEED that doubt in Pineclan too. We need those who have an inkling they could exist, and we cannot do that if Starclan cannot be bothered with Pineclan.

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But, Sabor, that's the difference between the other cats and Pineclan. They don't look up to Starclan for answers, protection, and other things. Why would Starclan waste the effort to stretch out to cats that have already rejected their ways? It would most likely be a wasted effort. It's like trying to convert an atheist into someone with a religion. They will always come up with excuses for why certain things happen.

I just don't think that StarClan would give up on a clan. I think they wouldn't be sending messages every night, but I do think that they would send dreams every once in a blue moon. StarClan wouldn't turn their back on a clan... They're too noble for that. That would be like, "Oh you smoke pot? Well there's nothing we can do about that. We'll just leave you to get stoned."

[Ten]

While some of y'all might have noticed, I've got to say:
I don't like StarClan.
So I'm biased.

Still, I'd like to offer my irrelevant input - StarClan should not contact PineClan.
And I'd like to take that a step further. I think that it should be impossible for any of the characters to prove that StarClan does or doesn't exist, either way. I'm hoping that will eliminate some predetermination and the whole "good guys/bad guys" ideology as well as put more emphasis on pure faith and dogma.

For dreams and all that, the cats will dream like we do - weird random stuff that anyone can make up - and then the character can jump to the conclusion that it's meaningful. Prophecies can be vague ( "A blessing will come" ) so that cats can almost always claim they're fulfilled.

Make sense?

[Crowzerplorodon]

Your going to tell me that StarClan wouldn't even try the slightest to change PineClan, or at least some of the cats in it? They would just give up on the clan? No, they wouldn't. Because then they wouldn't be StarClan. Other clans look to StarClan for answers, protection, and most other things. StarClan tries its best to help all clans.

Tries.

They try.

What if PineClan does not want help.

By asserting themselves as a strong clan with no belief in Starry Cats, PineClan has proven to be a force to be reckoned with. And they did it all without belief in StarClan.

It was even started (more or less) by a ForestClan cat who did not believe.

If someone does not want help and has brought themselves to the top as a strong standing individual (or in this case, clan) and has shown that they have no interest in help what-so-ever, why would someone bother?

I already said that StarClan could contact a believing cat though. There is one of those in PineClan.

[Ten]

"It's like trying to convert an atheist into someone with a religion."

No. It's not. D:

"We need those who have an inkling they could exist,"

I like to call those "agnostics". :3

"By asserting themselves as a strong clan with no belief in Starry Cats, PineClan has proven to be a force to be reckoned with. And they did it all without belief in StarClan."

I had to reread that again to get it.