The Dark Forest

[Crowzerplorodon]

From my knowledge the Dark Forest is pretty much the opposite of StarClan appearance-wise.. From the brief descriptions of both places we get in the books, StarClan is this wonderful open place with tall trees and plenty of prey and although it's always night, the stars are so bright it's like the sun is there anyway.

The Dark Forest is quite literally, a dark forest. There's one moment where we're following Darkstripe and he comments on how he can hardly see a thing but can feel the trees and bushes around him and smell other cats like they're right next to him, but the only cat he's ever actually seen is Tigerclaw.

Now the Dark Forest really didn’t come into the series until the second prophecy. The Erins probably invented it as a last-second thing because they wanted Tigerclaw to mess with Brambleclaw and Hawkfrost but felt they couldn’t stick Tigerclaw in StarClan. But you can’t call it “Hell” because you can’t call StarClan “Heaven”.

The first series really made a point of stressing StarClan wasn’t some all-powerful God-like clan, but simply another clan of the forest who lives in the Stars. The Dark Forest cats seem to not be a clan, more like rogues in the forest.

My opinion is StarClan sends cats they don’t want to deal with there. Cats that are really “evil” or have done some bad stuff get sent there and StarClan doesn’t have to worry about them. Much. That’s probably why the cats can’t see each other, less for StarClan to worry about.

Tigerclaw seems to be the only exception to this, though. From the brief encounter he has with Darkstripe, it’s kinda implied he can see the other cats in the Dark Forest. And the fact that he can meet with Brambleclaw and Hawkfrost in dreams says something too (I don’t know what though.). It seems Tigerclaw’s abilities in the Forest give off a sorta StarClan air. Maybe he’s not really supposed to be there. Too bad we all know the Erins aren’t really going to do anything with it. xD

And yeah, the last two paragraphs are really just speculation or something.

[Ten]

So the bad thing about the Dark Forest is that it has bad landscaping?


In the books, it seems to be that
- if you're a character that the author likes or you're unimportant, you go to StarClan
- if you're a designated villain or the author hates you, you got to the Dark Forest


"the fact that he can meet with Brambleclaw and Hawkfrost in dreams says something too"
--
It says the Erins are making this up as they go along and don't know what they're doing.


That's the books, though.
How will things be done on Forest of Fate?
Everyone goes to StarClan unless they don't believe it exists?

[Crowzerplorodon]

That's the books, though.
How will things be done on Forest of Fate?
Everyone goes to StarClan unless they don't believe it exists?

--

This is something the admins/mods are going to discuss very soon then take opinions on it from members.

[/size]

[Rolo]

It is in my opinion that the Dark Forest has very little point and planning behind it.

I have always thought it, from the moment I heard of it. Why? It shows so little thought... very little development and it is, to me, one of the signatures in the Erins' downward slope in plot development.

The Dark forest is dark. And it is a forest. No faults there. That's all we know about it. Makes for interesting reading, eh?

You're alone in the dark forest, perhaps so you have no one but yourself. Perhaps the Erins were going down a 'road of eternal regret' theme, where cats are left alone to think of how horrific it is that they're so evil they can never talk to anyone again. Torment, perhaps? Yet... that's pretty much ruined as a concept when you realise some other things.

You can't see anyone in the dark forest... except when you meet your son or if you're evil/talented enough to get past the enforced seperation. Tigerclaw has been said to have met both Hawkfrost ("Tigerclaw and Hawkfrost are allowed to walk together as they are father and son, and because Tigerstar always challenges the rules!" Ask Erin Hunter www.warriorcats.com/warriorshell.html ) and Darkstripe. SO... you're given an afterlife of solitude... unless you're clever or your kin is evil too? How... horrorsome.

There is a divide between Starclan and the Dark Forest in the shape of mist, which, according to Warriors Wiki, can only be crossed by Starclan. So, Starclan cats can go to taunt them or something then? Or perhaps offer redemption, who knows? But... hang on, what's this? A Starclan cat can get lost in the Dark Forest if they aren't careful? So... lets get this straight. You can be either damned to a life of torment by being evil... or by living a life full of goodness and having no sense of direction? XD Does the Erins' realise how blooming ridiculous that is?

And lastly... the Dark Forest is a place for bad cats. We're pretty much told this over and over and we're never given a reason as to why. Perhaps it is simply a place for bad cats... like a holding den, keeping the world and Starclan safe from their corruption, as they are unworthy of the fantasticness of Starclan. But... sorry -_- That just fails even more.

Lets see... if you're going to have a place of downright evilness, full of devious, scheming cats, what is your main priority? Keeping them from doing more harm, making them powerless, that's what. But they're not. Tigerstar constantly haunts cats in their dreams, meddling in their training and generally doing what he did in life. He has an influence over life even in death and he gets to talk in cats in dreams. Going back to the torment idea... this makes his torment even less. He's not thinking of his past evil deeds and regretting them, he's planning new ones and carrying them out. He isn't being contained in any shape or form, his 'torment' through loneliness is non-existant, he sometimes shows more power than starclan...

So, to summarise;
Torment? - Nope, because it can be defeated through scheming (and what are evil cats? Scheming -_-). And the torment doesn't even work as family can 'get together'.
Just for evil cats? - Nope, because a Starclan cat can get lost there and effectively join their ranks.
Containment? - Nope, they have power over life still.



So, looking at that, let's answer your question:

Why do cats not want to go there? - Because bad cats go there and no one wants to be a bad cat. Nah, not really. Cats' fear it because the Erin's wanted a 'hell' and they were gonna make them fear this hell whether it was logical or not.

Is there something bad about it? - Apart from experiencing some feelings of slight loneliness, not really. Of course, your family can come visit you so you'll live ;P That and, if you're clever enough, there is a chance you may even get to terrorise cats you hate in dreams, which will probably override your slight discomfort.

Yes, it's not StarClan, but it that the only thing going against it? - Yes

That it's not something else? - Yes

Modified

Now, before I begin, I must make you aware that I have not read beyond the first series of books. For this reason, this page of opinions may feature inaccuracies and assumptions that I have made about the Dark Forest that could be untrue. After all, I've never read about the Dark Forest in context, and so I have a limited view on the concept. However, I have gained knowledge of the place from various sources, so I should be ok XD.

I should hope that all of you should help develop my understanding of the Dark Forest. I know I am perhaps not justified to comment on the concept, knowing what little I do, but I shall anyway XD Please note that this was written in half-jest (in reply to a discussion) and it is meant to be humourous.

The Dark Forest, also known as the Place of No Stars, is a place that is shrouded in mystery. Very few people know the conditions for getting in there and warriors don't seem to know much, if anything at all, about it. However, we do know, for certain, that the Dark forest is a place where bad cats go to suffer for their 'sins'.

However, since I first time I heard about the concept and how it was applied, I have felt the Dark Forest has very little point and planning behind it. Why? It just struck me as a pretty crappy place to put evil cats in. I shall explain by walking you through the concepts that make it up.

No moon or stars shone in the sky above his head but tree trunks thick with fungus shed an eerie glow on the bare earth beneath his paws

Firstly, the Dark forest is dark. And it is a forest. With fungus. No faults there. That's all we know about it settings-wise, really. Makes for interesting reading, eh?

The huge tom opened his jaws to draw in air, though he did not expect to taste the scent of prey. He knew that the twitching of the ferns meant nothing, and the flickering scraps of darkness would vanish like mist if he pounced on them.

We also are told that one of the main aspects of the Dark forest is that there is no stimulation, you cannot do anything you used to do in life (Hunt, eat, socialise). This leads one to believe that the Dark forest is a form of torment. You were bad in life, now you don't get the pleasure life brings. Fair stuff, it's understandable. Yet, from here on,

You're alone in the dark forest, perhaps so you have no one but yourself. Perhaps the Erins were going down a 'road of eternal regret' theme, where cats are left alone to think of how horrific it is that they're so evil they can never talk to anyone again. Torment, perhaps? Yet... that's pretty much ruined as a concept when you realise some other things.

You can't see anyone in the dark forest... except when you meet your son or if you're evil/talented enough to get past the enforced seperation. Tigerclaw has been said to have met both Hawkfrost ("Tigerclaw and Hawkfrost are allowed to walk together as they are father and son, and because Tigerstar always challenges the rules!" Ask Erin Hunter www.warriorcats.com/warriorshell.html ) and Darkstripe. SO... you're given an afterlife of solitude... unless you're clever or your kin is evil too? How... horrorsome.

There is a divide between Starclan and the Dark Forest in the shape of mist, which, according to Warriors Wiki, can only be crossed by Starclan. So, Starclan cats can go to taunt them or something then? Or perhaps offer redemption, who knows? But... hang on, what's this? A Starclan cat can get lost in the Dark Forest if they aren't careful? So... lets get this straight. You can be either damned to a life of torment by being evil... or by living a life full of goodness and having no sense of direction? XD Does the Erins' realise how blooming ridiculous that is?

And lastly... the Dark Forest is a place for bad cats. We're pretty much told this over and over and we're never given a reason as to why. Perhaps it is simply a place for bad cats... like a holding den, keeping the world and Starclan safe from their corruption, as they are unworthy of the fantasticness of Starclan. But... sorry -_- That just fails even more.

Lets see... if you're going to have a place of downright evilness, full of devious, scheming cats, what is your main priority? Keeping them from doing more harm, making them powerless, that's what. But they're not. Tigerstar constantly haunts cats in their dreams, meddling in their training and generally doing what he did in life. He has an influence over life even in death and he gets to talk in cats in dreams. Going back to the torment idea... this makes his torment even less. He's not thinking of his past evil deeds and regretting them, he's planning new ones and carrying them out. He isn't being contained in any shape or form, his 'torment' through loneliness is non-existant, he sometimes shows more power than starclan...

So, to summarise;
Torment? - Nope, because it can be defeated through scheming (and what are evil cats? Scheming -_-). And the torment doesn't even work as family can 'get together'.
Just for evil cats? - Nope, because a Starclan cat can get lost there and effectively join their ranks.
Containment? - Nope, they have power over life still.

[Ten]

"or by living a life full of goodness and having no sense of direction?"
--
Crap. I'd be stuck in the Dark Forest, then.


"Apart from experiencing some feelings of slight loneliness, not really."
--
Nevermind; I don't have to worry about getting lost. My school is the Dark Forest.


"Yes, it's not StarClan, but it that the only thing going against it? - Yes"
--
-snicker-


Thank you, Rolo. That's great.




afterthought: In case you're wondering, yes, I'm serious about the last two sentences.

[pteriforever]

Jul 14, 2009 16:45:39 GMT -5 » s a b ø r ] said:

It's true...
Cats in PineClan would be very happy there, yet the cats that know of this place view it as Hell.

Simple.

Firestar has hypnotic powers. Starclan did not like this, so, as they have little control over living cats, they secretly created the Dark Forest to do away with Firestar when he dies. SOmetime after he was made deputy, StarClan sent dogs after Bluestar for revenge, becuase she chose the wrong deputy. Dustpelt, not Firestar, was the one intended to be Bluestar's successor. Shortly after this, Firestar used his hypnotic powers on StarClan. This caused them to forget the horrible atrocities that Bluestar commited. After a few books, 90% of StarClan were so deeply corrupted by Firestar that most of them did anything within their power to protect him. The 10% that remained true lied to Firestar to believe he was correct. The rest of StarClan, however, found use for the Dark Forest for using it to get rid of Firestar's enemies. To put it more simply, Firestar DOES NOT have loyalty to StarClan, but StarClan has loyalty to Firestar. It is said that this curse will be lifted when Stormfur's secret prophecy is fulfilled. Sadly, the only one that knows about the secret prophecy is Midnight, who hasn't shown up for ages. And that, peoplez, is how the Dark Forest was created...

[Ten]

Eclipse page 292-5, hardcover

While I know you'll want to cut out some parts of this, I'll give you the full thing for context's sake. Also, please commiserate with me on the lameness of this scene.


Ashfur signaled to Sorreltail and Whitewing, who were sharing tongues outside the warriors' den. They leaped to their paws and followed Ashfur to the torn tunnel. Lionpaw hurried after them.

The forest was brighter now that the leaves were beginning to fall. Sunlight streamed through the branches and pooled on the forest floor. AS they padded toward the WindClan border, Lionpaw dropped back. Was he really ready to become a warrior? Since he was a kit, he had dreamed of being the greatest warrior ThunderClan had ever know. But back then it had been a dream. Now the battles were real. He remembered with a shiver the blood pulsing from Crowfeather's neck, and Heatherpaw's terror. He had done that, possessed by some strength he seemed unable to control. Was that what being a warrior meant? Would he ever learn to control the power he felt in his paws?

Lionpaw shivered as the woods darkened. Clouds had

---

covered the sun. He could hear his Clanmates rustling through the undergrowth ahead, but something moved in the ferns nearer. He paused. A shape rippled between the trees beside him. A dark-striped pelt.

Tigerstar.

The warrior growled from the shadows. "I watched the battle." Tigerstar shouldered his way through the bushes and stepped onto the path in front of Lionpaw. "You fought well. You were a credit to your ancestors." His amber eyes gleamed.

Lionpaw looked past Tigerstar, searching for Hawkfrost.

"I came alone," Tigerstar told him. "I have no patience for Hawkfrost's sneering. He thinks you actually believe this prophecy. But I know you're too smart to believe Firestar's mouse-brained dreams."

Lionpaw shifted his paws, uncomfortable under Tigerstar's unblinking gaze. "Did you see the sun vanish?"

"It seems the Clans have displeased StarClan." Tigerstar's whiskers twitched. "Those starry-eyed fools never had the heart for battle. Unlike you."

"Ashfur says I'm ready to be a warrior."

"Really?" Tigerstar circled him. "You think you have learned all there is to learn?"

"I've learned all Ashfur has to teach."

"You still have plenty to learn from me."

Lionpaw narrowed his eyes. Did Tigerstar really know more? Does he guide my paws in battle? Was it only Tigerstar's training that helped him beat every enemy and leave the fight unscathed?"

---

Tigerstar's breath felt hot on his muzzle as the warrior leaned closer. "You have plenty to learn from me, right?" Anyone else thinking this sounds homosexual?

Lionpaw shifted on his paws. The dark warrior wanted an answer.

"You can teach me more battle skills, I suppose." Lionpaw lifted his chin. "But what's the point when I've proved I can beat any cat?"

Tigerstar's eyes blazed like fire. "You think you're invincible!" A growl rumbled in his throat. "Hawkfrost is right. You do believe this prophecy."

"Yes!" Lionpaw dug his claws into the ground. "You saw me fight in the battle. Could you have fought better and come out unharmed?" He flicked his tail. "You were killed in battle."

He turned to leave. He didn't need the guidance of this dead cat!

A roar split the air. Lion paw spun around. Too late: Claws pierced his shoulders as Tigerstar knocked him to the ground. Lionpaw struggled, but Tigerstar held him down, his massive shoulders rippling with the effort.

"You think you don't need me anymore, is that it?" Tigerstar hissed in his ear. "You're a fool! You're just been lucky, nothing more. Firestar's prophecy is blinding you. You're like a kit who still believes in nursery tales." He shoved Lionpaw down harder, pressing his face into the leaves. "You're powerful because of me, and you will only grow more powerful by learning what I teach you." He gave Lionpaw another shake before jumping back.

Lionpaw scrambled to his paws and turned on him, anger

---

flaring in his belly. But Tigerstar was fading, his shape dissolving in front of him.

"I've not finished with you yet." With a final hiss, Tigerstar vanished.

Lionpaw was trembling with fury. Why as Tigerstar so determined to ignore the prophecy?

"Lionpaw!" Ashfur was calling him from the bushes ahead.

He hurried to catch up, his shoulders stinging where Tigerstar's claws hand dug in. He glanced behind him. Was Tigerstar still watching? what did the dark warrior want from him, if he didn't want the power of the stars?

[Ten]

Starlight, page 207-9, hardcover

Cool grass swept against Brambleclaw's pelt as he prowled through the undergrowth. He could hear the scuttering of tiny creatures underneath the bushes, and his senses were flooded with the scent of prey.

Before he could make a catch, he emerged into an open space. An almost-full moon hung in the clear sky, outlining every grass stem and leaf with pale silver rays. Just in front of him the ground fell away into a cleft, with rocks jutting from its steep sides.

Brambleclaw stared in astonishment. This was the ravine leading down to the old ThunderClan camp. He lifted his head and sniffed cautiously. There was no harsh tang of Twoleg monsters in the air, no noise louder than the gentle rustle of the wind in the trees. Their home was safe. The destruction of the forest, the fear and the hunger, the long journey through the mountains, had been nothing more than a dream.

Brambleclaw pelted down the ravine to the gorse tunnel at the bottom, his heart nearly bursting with happiness. In a few heartbeats he would see all his Clanmates again: Graystripe

---

would never had been captured by Twolegs; all Ferncloud's kits would still be alive; the elders would be in their den, querulously ordering the apprentices to get rid of their ticks.

Trembling with excitement, Brambleclaw pushed his way through the gorse tunnel into the camp, his jaws parted to let out a yowl of greeting. The he stopped dead. The clearing was completely empty, except for one cat sitting alone in the middle of the open space.

The cat raised his head and gazed at Brambleclaw with scorching amber eyes.

It was Tigerstar.

Brambleclaw almost chocked with shock and disbelief. Graystripe's capture, the death of Ferncloud's kits, the endless journey - all those things were real. This was the dream, and it had suddenly become a nightmare.

Tigerstar kinked his tail and beckoned Brambleclaw to come closer. Brambleclaw stiffened, then padded slowly forward. As he drew closer he saw his father more clearly, his muscular shoulders and broad head, his burning amber eyes.

"Welcome," Tigerstar rumbled. "I have waited for many moons to speak with you."

Brambleclaw stopped a couple of tail-lengths away. He had no idea what to say. All he could think was that he was the image of his father - the breadth of his shoulders, the shape of his head, the exact shade of his eyes. he could have been staring at his reflection in a pool.

"I have seen your courage and strength," Tigerstar went

---

on. "I am proud to call you kin."

"Th-thank you." Bramblecalw kneaded his forepaws on the ground. "Why have you come here? Did StarClan send you?"

"I don not hunt with StarClan," spat Tigerstar. "There is more sky than Silverpelt, and there are hunting grounds that not even StarClan knows of."

[Rolo]

Now, before I begin, I must make you aware that I have not read beyond the first series of books. For this reason, this page of opinions may feature inaccuracies and assumptions that I have made about the Dark Forest that could be untrue. After all, I've never read about the Dark Forest in context, and so I have a limited view on the concept. However, I have gained knowledge of the place from various sources, so I should be ok XD.

I should hope that all of you should help develop my understanding of the Dark Forest. I know I am perhaps not justified to comment on the concept, knowing what little I do, but I shall anyway XD Please note that this was written in half-jest (in reply to a discussion) and it is meant to be humourous.

The Dark Forest, also known as the Place of No Stars, is a place that is shrouded in mystery. Very few people know the conditions for getting in there and warriors don't seem to know much, if anything at all, about it. However, we do know, for certain, that the Dark Forest is a place where bad cats go to suffer for their 'sins'.

However, since I first time I heard about the concept and how it was applied, I have felt the Dark Forest has very little point and planning behind it. Why? It just struck me as a pretty crappy place to put evil cats in. I shall explain by walking you through the concepts that it consists of.

Sunset, prologue

No moon or stars shone in the sky above his head but tree trunks thick with fungus shed an eerie glow on the bare earth beneath his paws

Firstly, the Dark Forest is dark. And it is a forest. With fungus. No faults there. That's all we know about it settings-wise, really. Makes for interesting reading, eh?

Sunset, prologue

The huge tom opened his jaws to draw in air, though he did not expect to taste the scent of prey. He knew that the twitching of the ferns meant nothing, and the flickering scraps of darkness would vanish like mist if he pounced on them.

We also are told that one of the main aspects of the Dark Forest is that there is no stimulation. You cannot do anything you used to do in life (hunt, eat, socialise). This leads one to believe that the Dark forest is a form of torment. You were bad in life and now you don't get the pleasure life brings. Fair stuff, it's understandable. Yet, from here on, things begin to get a little contradictory.

We are told that you are alone in the dark forest and you cannot contact/meet anyone else. Perhaps the Erins were going down a 'road of eternal regret' theme, where cats are left alone to think of how horrific their crimes were, that they're so evil they can never talk to anyone again. A type of hellish torment, perhaps? But... this falls flat.

You can't see anyone in the dark Forest... except when you meet up with your equally-evil son or if you're evil/talented enough to get past the enforced separation. Yes, Tigerclaw has been said to have met both Hawkfrost and Darkstripe on seperate occations. And yes, the reasons I cited were reasons the Erins gave for their meeting up.

Ask Erin Hunter - www.warriorcats.com/warriorshell.html

"Tigerclaw and Hawkfrost are allowed to walk together as they are father and son, and because Tigerstar always challenges the rules!"

SO, you're given an afterlife of solitude... unless you're clever or your kin is evil too? How... horrorsome.

Next concept. There is a divide between StarClan and the Dark Forest in the shape of mist, which, according to Warriors Wiki, can only be crossed by StarClan. So, Starclan cats can go to taunt doomed cats or something then? Or perhaps offer redemption, who knows? But... hang on? A StarClan cat can get lost in the Dark Forest if they aren't careful? So, let's get this straight. You can be either cursed to a life of torment by being evil... or by living a life full of goodness and having no sense of direction? XD Do the Erins realise how blooming ridiculous that is?

And lastly... the Dark Forest is a place for bad cats. We're pretty much told this over and over and we're never given a reason as to why. Perhaps it is simply a place for bad cats, like a holding den, keeping the world and StarClan safe from their corruption, as they are unworthy of the fantasticness of Starclan. But... sorry -_- That just fails even more.

Lets see... if you're going to have a place of downright evilness, full of devious, scheming cats, what is your main priority? Keeping them from doing more harm and making them powerless, that's what. But they're not. Tigerstar constantly haunts cats (or scares the crap out of Brambleclaw) in their dreams, meddling in their training and generally doing what he did in life. In fact, Tigerstar has even physically hurt a cat, Lionpaw, from the Dark Forest.

Eclipse page 292-5, hardcover

[Lionpaw] turned to leave. He didn't need the guidance of this dead cat!

A roar split the air. Lionpaw spun around. Too late: Claws pierced his shoulders as Tigerstar knocked him to the ground. Lionpaw struggled, but Tigerstar held him down, his massive shoulders rippling with the effort.

"I've not finished with you yet." With a final hiss, Tigerstar vanished.

Lionpaw was trembling with fury. Why was Tigerstar so determined to ignore the prophecy?

"Lionpaw!" Ashfur was calling him from the bushes ahead.

He hurried to catch up, his shoulders stinging where Tigerstar's claws hand dug in. He glanced behind him. Was Tigerstar still watching? What did the dark warrior want from him, if he didn't want the power of the stars?

Tigerstar has an influence over life even in death and he gets to talk in cats in dreams and sometimes, seemingly, in real life. Going back to the torment idea... this makes his torment even less. He's not thinking of his past evil deeds and regretting them, he's planning new ones and carrying them out. How is this a good form of 'containment'?

So, let us look at all the points. Tigerstar isn't being contained in any shape or form, and it doesn't seem as if the other cats in the Dark Forest would be if they plotted as much as Tigerstar. He walks in living cat's dreams and meddles with their lives. Tigerstar is also not exactly being 'tormented' through loneliness, we've seen him with both his friends and living cats. Even if he's been starved of prey (does he even need to eat? XD) and stimulation, I'm sure he's not desperately unhappy as he gets to plot and carry out his plots as often as he likes. Even worse, Tigerstar sometimes shows more power than StarClan. StarClan gives prophecies occasionally and sometimes gives warnings or whatever's through dreams... Tigerstar can talk freely to cats and get them to do his will. How does that work? Shouldn't Starclan be more powerful?

So, to summarise;
Torment? - Apart from experiencing some feelings of slight loneliness and hunger, not really. The forced loneliness doesn't even work anyway as it can be defeated by scheming. And, of course, your family can come visit you so you'll live ;P Oh and, if you're clever enough, there is a chance you may even get to terrorise cats you hate in dreams, which will probably override your slight discomfort.
Just for evil cats? - Nope, because a StarClan cat can get lost there and effectively join their ranks.
Containment? - Nope, they have power over life still.

So, what is the point of the Dark Forest? I would love to hear your ideas. Perhaps you have thought of another point which could rubbish all my critisism and actually make the Dark Forest somewhat terrifying. Feel free to agree or disagree with me. I will be genuinely fastinated, whatever you say.

I'd also be interested in any of your general theories about the point, story-wise, of the Dark Forest. Is there a reason why there are so many exploitable holes in the realm? Discuss.

[Cloud of Diamonds]

Lol Rolo. I think you make a load of good points, but instead of describing them all and supporting them, I'm going to say that you are right and that the Erins fail on a bunch of things. However, I think some of the reasons the Dark Forest is poorly made is 1. Like I said, this is the Erins we're talking about here. Need I say more? 2. I don't imagine it's high on their priority list to describe it perfectly. 3.I think the general idea is not torment, but less the taking of certain advantages, i.e, giving lives, watching over Clanmates, etc. Idk. -spouts crap- I just felt like posting on this. x3